conversations with a born-again atheist: a few definitions

Posted on by Julie Stiles Mills

faith and reasonIf you’re new to the party, HERE are the previous posts in this series. If you want to skip the history and prefer the twitter version, I’m having an ongoing conversation with a born-again atheist. When I say “born-again atheist” I mean he was a born again Christian, but is now an atheist.

Note: So far, I’ve been including the back and forth of these conversations in one post, but I think I’m going to shift and begin posting most of these emails one at a time. The fact that you don’t see my response to AtypicalAtheist’s email below is ZERO indication that I agree with the statements he’s made. Just means I haven’t responded…YET. Conversely, a post that contains only my statements is ZERO indication that AtypicalAtheist agrees with anything I’ve said.

… snip … (from the “ground rules” email):

JSM: “…your statement “It does not trouble me for people believe in god any more than it troubles me for people to believe in UFO visits, guardian angels, or Santa Clause.” leads me to conclude you don’t view faith as reasonable, logical or rational. Actually, I think you’ve used all three of those words. I’m curious as to why you believe faith in Christ is incompatible with reason and logic. And I don’t take it at all personally, that holding such a belief, you might view me as lacking in reason and logic because I myself have faith in Christ.”

AtypicalAtheist: Hey Julie,

I’m glad for your qualifier – people often take these things personally. Suffice it to say I don’t find it a reasonable belief, but I support your right to believe as you wish. As to why I don’t find it reasonable, I think we’d have to back up in the conversation to the beginning. You profess belief in a god (the Christian God). Before we begin a discussion, we need to agree on some definitions I think. First, let me start with defining atheism and agnosticism – I touched on this early in our conversation, but it’s important to me not to gloss over it. Then, I’ll ask you for a definition or two so we’re on the same page…

1- Theism comes from the Greek root ‘theos’ meaning ‘god’, and is the belief in the existence of a god or gods. Atheism literally translates into ‘without’ + ‘belief in the existence of a god or gods’ because in Latin, the ‘a’ prefix means without (other examples include asexual, amoral, anarchy, anhydrous, etc). So – atheism is simply being “without the belief in a god or gods” and nothing more. It doesn’t say why there is a lack of belief, it simply is the lack of belief. According to my readings, the lack of belief could be implicit (for example, a tribe of Amazonians that don’t happen to believe in a god or gods), or could be explicit (someone that is familiar with the concept of a god or gods, and rejects the concept).

2- Gnosticism comes from the Latin word ‘gnostos’ meaning ‘known’, or ‘posessing knowledge’. Agnosticism is then literally ‘without knowledge’ or ‘without ultimate knowledge’. As a general term, agnosticism now signifies the impossibility of knowledge in some area – commonly, a person who believes that something is inherently unknowable. Coined by Thomas Huxley some time in the 1860’s, it was his assertion that “anything beyond the material world, including the existence and nature of God, was unknowable”. Contrary to popular belief, an agnostic isn’t some kind of middle-ground between belief in theism and atheism.

3- Atheism does not imply any type of moral code or world view. In fact, it’s merely the absense of a belief. There is no positive assertion or statements in atheism, just a negative one (without belief in a god or gods). So, lumping all atheists together in one bundle is as wrong as lumping all theists together under a common label. There are plenty of theists that don’t believe in the death penalty, do believe in a womans right to choose, and even don’t believe in Jesus. There are as many varied and principled and unprincipled atheists as there are principled and unprincipled theists (think Jim and Tammy Faye). Bottom line here is that one cannot infer that an atheist subscribes to any particular positive beliefs. The failure to believe in fairies does not entail a set of principles or a code of ethics – merely that one is an afairiest. 😀

So let me get a couple of definitions from you…

* What is your definition of a god?

* What are the attributes of the Christian God?

Thoughtfully,
AtypicalAtheist

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not more from God, more of God.

Posted on by Julie Stiles Mills

pray continually[the following is an excerpt from the book I’m writing]

Intimate communication with Christ through prayer can be the foundation of everything in your life: every thought you think, every idea that opens your mind, every choice you make. But when we relegate prayer to certain times and places in our lives, we limit that communication – and its influence on our thoughts, ideas and choices. We quench the Holy Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 5:17-18 tells us to “pray continually” and that it is “God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.” These instructions aren’t directed at monks, they are for everyone who has accepted Christ. It’s possible to pray anywhere, anytime because God is with you, everywhere, all the time. It’s possible for prayer to saturate your moments and your days.

Did I just morph into that Jesus Freak with whom you avoid eye contact and cross the street to escape? Have you already tuned me out, thinking, “meh, she’s not talking to me. I don’t need to change anything. I’m fine.”

fine.

The most heinous of four letter words. Saturated in mediocrity. Reeking of average. Riding the edge of dissatisfaction and discouragement. More comfortable than a recliner and a bowl of chips in front of a 60 inch flat screen. There are some people who live their entire lives feeling fine about everything they do. There are people live their entire lives feeling fine about their relationship with God.

Fine is not what I’m going for. I. want. more.

I’ve discovered that I can have as much of God as I want, and I want more. I want Christ in every nook and cranny of my mind and heart and soul, every day of the week because when He’s not? My pursuits are just pointless exercises in ladder climbing and stuff collecting. I want my relationship with Christ to be at the center of my marriage, my relationship with my kids, family and friends, my career, my ministry.

If that makes me a Jesus Freak, go ahead and call me one, under your breath or to my face, I’m okay with the label. I’ve found the ultimate source of passion in life and I can’t keep it to myself. I’m compelled to share it. It fuels me. My relationship with Christ makes the routine meaningful, the lows bearable and the highs incomparable. God’s grace is more amazing than any song could describe, His love is illogically unconditional, His patience is unimaginably endless, His blessings are undeserved and abundant and His peace obliterates worry and fear. This is the “more” I’m talking about and there’s plenty of it to go around.

It all stems from prayer, intimate no-holds barred prayer. Naked prayer. The kind of prayer you pray when you are unashamed and want to tell God everything. The kind of intimate communion Adam and Eve experienced with God in the Garden before they were deceived. I’m writing this book because I want you to want more. To have more. More of God.

Not more from God, more of God.

four minutes with God: Luke 1:37

Posted on by Julie Stiles Mills

Luke 1 37the Word:
“God can do anything.”
Luke 1:37 (NIV)

my Prayer:
Lord, I pray for revival, filled with doubt that You will stir it. Not because You can’t, but because You won’t. I believe You can do anything. But I also know You don’t force yourself on anyone. And the people I’m praying for are very comfortable right where they are. They see no need to change. They see nothing wrong except for this Jesus Freak who’s rocking the boat.

So I ask you Lord, not for anything specific, because I have no flippin idea what to ask for. You know. You know exactly what is needed and exactly when. Your plan is perfect. Your timing is perfect. I know You don’t need me, but pray that You can and will use me. I’m asking You – I’m begging You – to move. Move in the hearts and minds of individuals. I pray that they will be DISsatisfied with an assumption of Christ. I pray that they will, from their soul, cry out for Jesus. I pray they won’t be able to stomach any substitute.

Almighty God, I’m begging you for a miracle, no matter what it looks like. No matter how much it hurts. Because You are my comfort, my peace, my strength and my hope. I trust You, even when I don’t understand what You are doing.

a Quote:
“He [God] specializes in solutions that have no explanation other than Him.

Don’t get discouraged by the long, unyielding situations in your life. God has solutions for them. He may not have revealed those solutions yet – He let many people in Scripture endure long periods that required faith and patience – but He is never late with His answers. Wait, believe and hope. Nothing is impossible with Him.”
The One Year Experiencing God’s Presence Devotional: 365 Daily Encounters to Bring You Closer to Him
by Chris Tiegreen

the lyric.
“I may be weak, But Your Spirit’s strong in me. My flesh may fail, but My God You never will!”
Give Me Faith, by Elevation Worship (click HERE to listen)

collateral learning.

Posted on by Julie Stiles Mills

I’ve said before that I’m the friend who prefers coffee and conversation over a couple of hours sitting silently in a dark movie theater together. I’m the friend you can talk to about the stuff that keeps you up at night – and I’m not going to judge you or tell you what to do – because I have no idea what you should do. If you let me, I’m going to pray with you and if you’re uncomfortable with that, I’m going to pray for you on my own. I’m going to listen and ask you relentless questions to help you think through and hone in on what you probably already know but sometimes can’t see because it’s blurred and hidden by the chaotic pace of life. or maybe fear. or rationalization.

I’ve been blessed and honored to have been trusted in many of those kind of conversations over the years. I’ve been blessed to see God move in some of my friend’s lives in unpredictable and phenomenal ways.

But it’s not at all uncommon for God to use these conversations to change ME. Rarely do I come out unaffected. If I’m open to it, I learn something every single time. About myself, what I believe, why I believe it and what God would have me do with what He’s teaching me. It’s one of the selfish reasons I’m so motivated to continue having “onion layer” conversations with people.

But learning is always risky. The results can be inconvenient. It’s so much easier to stick with the status quo. I usually find change unsettling and sometimes its effects are uncomfortably far-reaching. But when I have the courage to listen and be open, I make myself available for God to work in my own heart and life.

In one situation, I had a friend who asked me a question I couldn’t answer. Well, I answered it, but my answer was . . . lacking. I’ll tell you the question, but trust me, it’s not as simple as it appears:

If someone has what they believe to be – and what, in every way sounds like – a saving faith in Jesus Christ; If they believe He is THE only way to Heaven, their redeemer, the son of God, without sin, was crucified, dead and buried, descended into Hell, was raised and sits at the Father’s right hand. If they believe all this, and have gratefully accepted this gift of grace, if they regularly read the Bible and believe it is the Word of God, if they consistently spend time in prayer and they strive to live their life seeking God’s will . . . here it comes . . .

Is it possible to believe and accept Jesus WITHOUT believing and accepting His claim to BE God?

In other words, my friend believed Jesus is the Son of God, but didn’t believe Jesus IS God. They believed Jesus had all the authority of God because God granted it to Him, as His only Son. BUT. They did not believe the Father and the Son were One. They did not find the trinity to be reasonable any more than they found the word trinity in the Bible. When they asked, “When Jesus was praying in the garden of Gethsemane the night before he was crucified, who was He talking to? Himself? That doesn’t make sense!”

My immediate thought was, pshh. I talk to myself all the time.

Wait. Is that weird?

Citing multiple personality disorder as my strongest apologetic? Would not have been my strongest witnessing moment. I had to face the unpleasant fact that I was pitifully prepared to provide scriptural reasons I believe Jesus IS God. I had my own personal reasons and they made perfect sense. To me. But my friend was asking me to show them in the Bible. And I couldn’t do it, at least not on the spot. I had to tell them the truth. The inexcusable fact was that I had long ago worked through what I believed and why I believed it regarding the trinity and once I did, I moved forward. I remembered very little about why I believe what I believe. I just knew it to be truth.

As a result, even though the conversation was focused on them and their struggles, I experienced collateral learning that extended far beyond that conversation. That one question was the impetus for some serious Bible reading and theological discussion. I found multiple scripture verses supporting my belief that Jesus and God are One essence. And I’m going to remember them this time.

But I still didn’t have an answer as to whether believing Jesus and God are One is essential to salvation. Meaning, I found lots of support for my belief that they ARE One, but nothing about what it means to believe and accept Jesus WITHOUT believing and accepting His claim to BE God. But even that statement seems paradoxical.

So what did I learn, besides the scriptural support for my belief in the deity of Jesus Christ? I had to come to terms with the fact that there was NOTHING I could say or do to convince them. For every verse I found to support my position, they could point to another which supported theirs. Convincing them that Jesus IS God was not my job. It was GOD’S job. My job was to remain open to God’s leading and obedient to his promptings. He would do the rest. In His time.

My friend told me that God used me in their life. I would say the same.

claimed or counterclaimed.

Posted on by Julie Stiles Mills

“There is no neutral ground in the universe; every square inch, every split second is claimed by God and counterclaimed by Satan.” C.S. Lewis

Either I’m on track and Satan is ticked and trying to derail me,

or

I’m off track and God is relentlessly trying to get me to see that He’s answering my prayer for direction.

and so I pray.

because I desperately want to be claimed by God.

I can’t let the negative feedback of man push me to the bench to sit and do nothing, waiting for God to tell me what to do. I can’t let the negative feedback of man discourage me from my ministry, especially after experiencing what I sincerely believe was a powerful interchange of the Holy Spirit with God’s people. I can’t ignore the possibility that Satan is ticked and wants to make sure it doesn’t happen again. Since that big fat liar is no match for the Holy Spirit, he chooses to attack God’s people, planting doubt and sowing discouragement.

I’m going to stay diligent on my path until God slams into me like a linebacker and knocks me off of it.

I’m hardheaded that way.

Not by might, not by power, but by my spirit says the Lord.
Zechariah 4:6

This old song is creeping into my memory today.