christian living Archives - Page 6 of 26

conversations with a born-again atheist: an atheist’s testimony (part 2)

Posted on February 6, 2013April 5, 2018 by Julie Stiles Mills

If you’re new to the party, HERE are the previous posts in this series. If you want to skip the history and prefer the twitter version, I’m having an ongoing conversation with a born-again atheist. When I say “born-again atheist” I mean he was a born again Christian, but is now an atheist.

Below is part 2 of AtypicalAtheist’s response to my question:

How did you – a self-professed born again Christian – become an atheist?

CLICK HERE to read part 1

AtypicalAtheist: Fast forward to my senior year and I’ve proposed to high school sweetheart. When we begin discussing our wedding plans, we needed to agree upon what church we’re going to be married in. Hmmm…. well, by this point, I wasn’t affiliated with any specific religion anymore and really was a bit hostile to the idea. She wasn’t regularly visiting church either, but was of very strong faith. But I was rather firm that I didn’t want a standard service. Instead, I wanted something like a “New Life” kinda service (I may have that name wrong, but the idea is about right). Basically something more non-denominational. She assented to this I think without us really getting into my hostility toward the bible and toward what is now commonly referred to as “organized religion” – I didn’t have that moniker for it, but that’s what it’s now kinda lumped into. Anyway, we were married by a pastor in the Lompoc Mission – definitely not a traditional service.

Our first seven years of marriage were perfect really. We mostly didn’t attend church services, although occasionally, I was asked to attend an Easter service or my wife would just go to a service without me. Then she got pregnant after much trying in our seventh year. Here is where things began to change a bit for me, and where our perspectives on religion had a much more consequential impact. I was certain that I didn’t want my children “brainwashed with religion” (you can check with my wife – I’m certain I used that phrase a time or two) and she was aghast at my contempt for it. But it wasn’t based on deep research at this point, only based on my prior readings of the bible really. I remember two very distinct clashes between us in these early days that forever changed our personal rules of engagement on the religion issue:

1- We were in the outlet mall near I-Drive and there was a Christian store that my wife and kids wanted to go into. My wife started showing my eldest a bible and I nearly had an aneurysm (you see, my wife has never actually read the bible), and I made quite a pitiful scene in this store. I raised my voice saying things like “Do you really want your daughter to read how it’s ok to sell your daughters into slavery since it’s permitted in ‘your’ bible?” and “The amount of killing, rape and plundering makes this book rated X in my opinion. There’s no way I want my daughter to be reading this trash”. Suffice it to say that it was an embarrassment for all.

2- One year, my eldest was about 2 maybe, and my wife wanted us to go to a church service. During the service, I was openly hostile to the pastor who was just doing his thing… I was loudly sighing in disagreement and basically making an ass out of myself. I was in his place of worship trying to appease my wife by going to a service, and yet I was acting like I was in my own house being put off by his message. Again, a childish response to my ever-growing disagreement with religion and the bible, but my wife swore to never ever ask me back into a church service. It was for the best really.

As years passed, I (on more than one occasion) would make sure that any reference to God or Jesus based on some story, song, movie or whatever was at least accompanied by a quick (although probably painful from my wife’s point of view) mention that history is replete with people using gods to explain phenomena they couldn’t explain any other way. For example Thor… (blah blah) or Buddha (blah blah). You get the picture. I didn’t want only Christianity to be mentioned – I wanted all kids to know for sure that there are opposing views to religion and that just because mom (or dad) believes X doesn’t mean there aren’t other areas to investigate. I mentioned comparative religion many times in those years. And, to my wife’s credit, she was completely onboard with the idea that we shouldn’t just mention God/Jesus either. On this level, she completely agreed.

I started really researching atheism somewhere in my 30s. My wife started regularly attending church alone, and to counter this, I believe I went on a research “binge”. My spare time was consumed with reading books on various topics covering religion, evolution, and atheism. I purchased books, used the internet to research critiques for and against religion in general, not just against the revealed religion of Christianity. Ultimately, after much research, I concluded that I am, after all, an atheist. I am without belief in a god or gods.

There was one other blow-up regarding religion in my family I’ll share – largely because it shows my inability to convince anyone to “convert” to atheism, and why I’ve adopted a live-and-let live policy on this topic. My eldest daughter was dating a creep (yeah, he really was a creep), but the creep wanted her to go to church to be with him on Sundays. My wife was more than happy to take her. At one point, there was a large blow-up in front of my eldest daughter regarding my concern that church would somehow brainwash her. This, it seemed, was happening in spite of my attempts to educate my kids that religion isn’t necessarily true and that it was the construct of a superstitious people long ago. Anyway, my wife and I walked for hours around the neighborhood park one evening as I carefully and thoughtfully laid out my “acquired” evidences for the absurdity of belief in gods. And here’s the thing … it didn’t matter. To my wife, her faith is more important than facts. Her faith is more important than reality. It’s what gets her through her day, and to take it away by brute force would be evil. She needs her faith – who the hell am I to try to wrest that from her grasp. What a jerk I was in that moment. It was momentously important to me that she see the “truth”, but it wasn’t important to her.

What did turn out to be important though was this – by introducing the notion of multiple competing religions to my children, and multiple competing versions of “the truth”, I believe we’ve equipped our children to make a decision regarding their assent or rejection of religion. Instead of just being an atheist because daddy is, my kids know that many people believe a variety of things, and it’s up to them to make a decision based on research, not based on passed-down edict. I think we did that well my wife and I – and it took great concession / compromise on both our parts. If my wife had it her way, her children would be in church every Sunday. If I had it my way, my children would be in a free thought meeting every Saturday. We do neither, and instead have encouraged our kids to research and make up their own mind.

In the end, I’ve asked myself this… How would I feel if my middle child wanted to go join the Latter Day Saints? Well, I guess I’d be disappointed – unless of course, she researched the various religions, visited them one by one, and decided for herself that it was the one that represented the truth to her. In that case, I’d feel like we succeeded.

AtypicalAtheist

Click HERE to see all “conversations with a born-again atheist” posts.
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desperate.

Posted on February 5, 2013April 5, 2018 by Julie Stiles Mills

This is the third post in a series.

To give context, here’s a snippet from “irreconcilable differences.” – the first post in this series:

“I had come to the church campus that Wednesday morning for a Christian yoga class and after yoga, I found myself walking into the empty sanctuary instead of to my van. I picked up a pew Bible and climbed the steps to the stage to sit in the same spot I stand when I sing with praise team.”

The second post is entitled “the assumption of Christ.”

At my church, corporate prayers emphasize our need for God and that God is a good God. A compassionate God. A loving God.

Never a mention of the fact that God is a just God and that He can’t look upon sin – of which we reek.
Never a mention that all our righteous deeds are like a filthy cloth.
Never a mention that we desperately need Jesus Christ.

Corporate prayer is safe and appropriate to the occasion. I couldn’t remember ever experiencing intimacy with Christ, being moved to desperation or overwhelmed with adoration and gratitude by corporate prayer.

Conversations are about the logistics and scheduling of programs and service. When I went to them (I’ve stopped going), discussions in classes and studies were theological, academic and intellectual.

I couldn’t remember ever being convicted or personally challenged by a sermon message or class discussion.

My church is grounded in the assumption of Christ.

and I couldn’t remember it ever being otherwise. I have attended this church for 12 years. 12 years. How had I not seen it before?

I had been asleep. Numb. On autopilot. I had forgotten. I had been distracted. I had spent 12 years nestled in the security of familiarity and comfort.

12 years.

Now I am awake, stirred by the Holy Spirit. Through God’s grace, I’ve been prompted to switch off my autopilot.

Now my vision is vertical and unobstructed.

And I am wrenched about what I see and how much time I’ve wasted.

I am ashamed. Ashamed to have wasted so much time. Deeply ashamed that I have allowed my children to believe this is what church is.

I looked out into the empty sanctuary that Wednesday morning and I saw a beautiful building.

And I remembered something. When the sanctuary was being built, after the walls went up, but before any painting or flooring, the youth of the church had been invited and encouraged to write scripture on the cement foundation and the walls. Under the paint and flooring of that beautiful sanctuary was the Word of God. Covered up. Hidden.

Hidden by beautiful things, but still hidden.

And forgotten.

I read Matthew 15:8-9 again:

“This people honors Me with their lips,
but their heart is far away from Me.
But in vain do they worship Me,
teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.”

Did Matthew 15:8-9 describe this church? I couldn’t say no with any confidence at all. We didn’t talk about Jesus much here. We talked about god. And yes, that lowercase “g” is intentional. Church has been a part of my life for as long as I can remember. It’s one of the reasons I thought I was a Christian before I ever accepted Christ. But for every church I’d attended, I was suddenly able to recognize which ones didn’t place Jesus at the center. This wasn’t the only one, just the most recent.

My church is grounded in the assumption of Christ.

And I am desperate for a Christ-centered church.

desperate.

I believe I am facing the end of a season of my life and I am profoundly sad about it. It keeps me up at night and it wakes me up before dawn, filling my thoughts and prayers.

I know that continuing in the status quo is not an option. Something has to change. I can’t un-know what God has revealed to me.

A few weeks before that Wednesday morning in the sanctuary, this was my prayer:

“Lord, I pray your forgiveness for finding long lasting delusion and comfort in places that only hold the appearance of dedication to You. Forgive me Lord, for being satisfied with serving others instead of abandoning my will and my ideas of what service looks like and allowing YOU to use me – however you see fit. Please forgive me for settling for appropriate and acceptable instead of wholeheartedly and unashamedly living out my faith in Christ, even when others see my thoughts, feelings and ideas as inappropriate, insufferable or naively dismissive of cultural norms. Forgive me Lord, for allowing the disapproval of people who don’t know me to dampen my enthusiasm and derail my dedication to live a life examined through the filter of Your Word. Forgive me Lord, for allowing so much time to pass before I found the courage and motivation to honestly face and process the reality of my surroundings and circumstances. My affinity for your people blinded me to the growing undeniable evidence that You are more an icon than THE reason this church exists and gathers. I want to be where You are. Please God, lead me to that place.”

And yet, after praying that prayer weeks before and reading what I believed to be a Word from God in Matthew 15:8-9 that autumn morning, I still prayed for revival. Filled with doubt that God would lift a finger, I prayed for a miracle.

I don’t want this season of my life to end, but I know that I can’t stay immersed in the assumption of Christ. Something has to change. My soul longs to be part of a church where talking about hard things doesn’t make people uncomfortable. I need to be part of a church where I can be open about my own sin without people rushing to assure me that I am a good person. I dream of a church where I can be a Jesus Freak and not freak people out. I ache to be part of a church where saying all this wouldn’t be met with disapproval or dismissed as coming from a wack job with too much time on her hands.

I desperately, desperately need to be part of a church where I’m not belittled or patronized because I think too much, pray too much or love Jesus too much.

“Deep within we long for the Father of all galaxies to fall on us weekly and take us to the mat with His full weight. Is that happening in your church? When was the last time you were gripped by the greatness of God?”

Vertical Church: What Every Heart Longs for. What Every Church Can Be.
by James MacDonald

This post is the third in a multi-part series, written mostly in early autumn 2012, published now for the first time.

The fourth post in this series: “desperate prayers. “mean” prayers.”

To read all of the posts in this series, CLICK HERE.

conversations with a born-again atheist: an atheist’s testimony (part 1)

Posted on February 5, 2013April 5, 2018 by Julie Stiles Mills

Below is PART ONE of AtypicalAtheist’s response to one of two questions I posed to him in my previous email.” (CLICK HERE to read part 2)

JSM: How did you – a self-professed born again Christian – become an atheist?

AtypicalAtheist: Hey Julie,

Here’s a book of info written over a couple of hours. I’ll answer the second question tomorrow.

You’re absolutely right – I was not coerced into accepting Christ as my Lord and Savior as a kid, nor was I coerced into immersion Baptism. Those were my choices, although in retrospect, they were kinda expected in my family. My upbringing, much like others I suspect, was that religion was handed down to me with the expectation of being assimilated. That is, whilst growing up, I wasn’t presented with a buffet of religious beliefs to choose from – I was presented with only one … on Sunday morning, we go see ReverendT at the chapel on base where we get a little sermon, I sing in the kids choir, once a month we take communion (the sweetest nastiest red wine and a wafer that stuck to the roof of my mouth), and then had donuts waiting for mom and dad in Sunday school because I was too young to participate.

I recall many services, but the two that stick out most for me was:

* Burying a time capsule in 1976 to commemorate the bicentennial after church on Sunday, July 4th, 1976 right there in the yard of the church.

* Playing Jesus in a musical … I remember soloing in a song called “3 Silver Coins”.

While we were on base, we went to church every Sunday, even when my dad was PCS or TDY. [that’s “permanent change of station” and “temporary duty travel” for us non-military folk] When my dad retired from the Air Force, we ended up with a Baptist church literally behind our house. I believe my dad went to that church, and rejected it for some reason (that I found out later). We ended up going regularly to a Nazarene church. We really were part of this congregation for over a year – and my dad used to write Christian songs to perform in the church. It should be noted that my best friends in 4-7th grade were Saul (Jewish) and Jacky (although her last name Goldstein makes one think she was Jewish, she followed something completely different that I still am unaware of even today). Anyway, at one point, my dad wrote the words to a song (By Bread Alone), but didn’t have a melody in mind. He gave me the words, and it actually started my songwriting – I wrote the music for the song, and performed it in the Nazarene church. I recall my dad being really proud that I had the guts to get up there and play the piano and sing to the song. At the same time, I noticed that, unlike the chapel on base, they didn’t clap at anything in the Nazarene church. There was a profound silence and many an “amen”, but no clapping. I recall not caring for that much. 😀

At some point (I don’t recall the point I’m afraid) my mom somewhat changed, and my dad didn’t do much about it really. We maintained Sunday as a family day, but it wasn’t really a church day anymore. My dad was still pursuing songwriting, but instead of Christian music, he pursued country music. I did however jump over the back wall to occasionally fill in on organ, and more regularly play the Krumar string machine for church services at the Baptist church. In fact, I was baptized in that church – I was in Middle School, but I don’t remember if it was 7th or 8th grade honestly. But one of those. The church was convenient because the parking lot was literally over the back wall from my house.

It was right around this time that I began studying the bible. Not at the behest of anyone in particular, but because people in the Baptist church seemed to have very different ideas about the bible than the folks at the Nazarene church and different also than in the on-base chapel. I’m trying to remember exactly what prompted my first reading of the bible, but it was around this time, and I remember very different experiences at each place. Now, having the benefit of the internet, I can see that the two churches have very different views regarding the trinity – perhaps this was the trigger. I’d be disingenuous if I stated my exact impetus – it was so long ago that I cannot recall. I just know that my first reading was after visiting all three places of worship. I know I read the bible to try to make sense of differences. I didn’t have the benefit of the internet to look things up – all I had was my bible. Funny enough, it’s one I still have today. It’s still in its bible cover replete with pen and pencil holders, and dedicated to me on my 11th birthday (1978). In fact, my dad and I painstakingly added bible book page turn stickers to the entire book. The bible is … “The Living Bible, Paraphrased, Study Reference Edition with Concordance – Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. Wheaton, Illinois” – Copyright 1971.

I read the thing cover to cover – I can’t honestly say exactly how long it took, but I have my little John 3:16 bookmark and made a little progress each day. There were things I didn’t understand – like Numbers 21:8 (I still have it underlined in my bible). I also have sections with blue and yellow highlighters that I recall using for various conditions. I have yellowed James 2:13, and blued James 2:22 and Psalms 34:15. I (funny enough) circled Sin as well as Repentance in the concordance. I also found a few places where my mom wrote in cursive in the bible – perhaps she borrowed it from time to time – I don’t recall. Anyway, my recollection of my first reading was one of a bit of titillation at some of the parts, and also it seemed that God was pretty mean. Lots of people being smoted and killed. This seemed to be weird to me because of how church people were saying how loving God is, but I was finding passage after passage to negate that sentiment. I see various other underlinings such as Numbers 15:30-31, and 35 which indicate I found some significance in them. Of course, it could have been find-the-passage from VBS – who knows. But I do recall this – I was a bit put off at the number of slayings. I really don’t believe I understood much of Revelations at the time either, and I found all the letters from Paul to be rather tedious. But I read. Oddly enough, after I finished the bible, I didn’t find I had much of a taste for it anymore. We moved to the other side of town and I was entering high school – so religion really fell off for me. I didn’t re-enter a place of worship until I was in 10th grade, and I was playing the piano for someone at another church.

It started innocently of course – Mrs. P. couldn’t accompany someone because she was sick – “Could you please just play this one thing for me at church? It’s only two services …. please???” In the end, I played regularly for 4 young ladies (I don’t recall playing for any guys now that I think about it). But in one case, Lisa (the Amy Grant fanatic) had me playing at churches everywhere. And they didn’t seem to be affiliated churches – like all Baptist or all Presbyterian or whatever. It was like she had an agent and was being booked all over… I’m sure it wasn’t that, but in retrospect, that’s what it seemed like. I played in Catholic churches (lots of stand, kneel, stand, kneel, and lots of Latin. But they never cracked the bible), I played a Christadelphian church where someone did something in tongues and I saw a snake participate in the service, I was in a relatively quiet church I believe was either “New Life” or something similar that I don’t have anything specific to note just that it wasn’t really specific about anything, and I also played in Pentecostal and Lutheran churches. I know the Christadelphian church wasn’t for Lisa, and neither was the Catholic. One common theme resonating throughout was “give me money” and “we’re the only right ones”. It seemed to me everyone can’t be right, and why are they always passing the plate around??? In one service I played, they passed the plate twice – once for regular tithing, and once for the new annex they were building. Gaaack!

It was around this time that I was thinking … jeeze – there are sure a lot of versions of “the truth”. I could go with this one, and be wrong, or that one and be just as wrong. So who’s right? So I read the bible again, multiple times. I think I largely skimmed some of the more boring parts my first-re-read, but I did look over each page again. Other re-reads focused on the New Testament and did laser-focus on Hell, or trying to count up the Old Testament murders. Other times, I tried to find differences in stories. I guess in retrospect, I’ve really only read it cover to cover twice, not the six times I stated earlier. The two times were complete readings. The other four times (at least, maybe more) were to focus on things that differed from church to church or were trying to find inconsistencies. In talking with Lisa one day, I mentioned a bit about some of my findings, and she said something to the effect of “Well, that’s the Old Testament God. We don’t really read much of that anymore, we’re much more concerned about the New Testament and God’s love”. That’s when it kinda hit me that she would get out of it whatever she wanted and didn’t worry about the other stuff. I recall speaking at a high-level on this to my mom, but I really don’t recall the outcome other than “take what you want and leave the rest”. Hmmm

I guess that left me with a bit of apathy then toward the bible. Several “experts” with the same book in hand, all demanding we believe different things with respect to the same document, and all claiming they’re right. Add to that my Jewish friends which believe that they’re right, and everyone believing that a god could command the killing of children and be somehow loving and just. That pretty much did it for me I think.

(CLICK HERE to read part 2)

the assumption of Christ.

Posted on February 4, 2013April 5, 2018 by Julie Stiles Mills

[The first post in this series is entitled “irreconcilable differences.” CLICK HERE to read it.]

My church is firmly grounded in the assumption of Christ. That is not a typo. I am not a victim of autocorrect. I intentionally typed “assumption” not “ascension.”

My church is firmly grounded in the assumption of Christ. And I am wrecked over it.

At my church, we talk about God, we pray to God and more than anything else, we serve others “in the name of God.” But I could have typed god with a lowercase “g.”

Too many of the sermons could easily be delivered in a Kingdom Hall or a mosque or a synagogue without changing a single word and without offending a single person of another faith.

Sermons are encouraging and comforting, emphasizing what we should do. How we should live. Character and discipline are recurring precepts. The pervading concept is consistently service.

I can’t remember ever hearing a straightforward caveat that – Christian or not – we are incapable of the doing good and the living right on our own. That character and discipline weren’t enough for Abraham or David, much less for us.

The name of Jesus is rarely spoken in my church outside of the “in Jesus name” precursor to “Amen.”

I can’t remember ever hearing a frank acknowledgment that there are people in the congregation who don’t know Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord.

I can’t remember ever hearing a clear and complete explanation of why we need Jesus.

A firm but loving declarative statement that Jesus is the only way to salvation?

NEVER.

I can’t remember ever hearing a personal challenge to face my sin – head on.

A firm but loving declarative statement that I need to repent of my sin?

NEVER.

I can’t remember ever hearing an impassioned call to repentance – or to Christ.

The only time I ever hear a connection between Jesus and the message is when the message is explicitly about Jesus, which again, is extremely rare.

I am desperate to hear messages that help me make a connection between the gospel and my everyday life.

I’ve done enough reading and studying on my own to understand that the timeless, redemptive story of Jesus can be found in every book of the Bible.

I long to hear that story. I long to hear about Jesus.

In every message.

Not only is the assumption of Christ not enough, it is NOTHING.

“Every week someone should proclaim the gospel, no matter what the topic is. If we’re talking about holiness, about manhood, about marriage, parenting, money, or any particular biblical command, we need to teach it and talk about it in view of the gospel, always bringing it back to the epic story of God’s redemption.”

from Creature of the Word: The Jesus-Centered Church
by Matt Chandler, Josh Patterson, and Eric Geiger

This post is the second in a multi-part series, written mostly in early autumn 2012, published now for the first time.

The third post in this series: “desperate.”
To read all of the posts in this series, CLICK HERE.

irreconcilable differences.

Posted on February 4, 2013April 5, 2018 by Julie Stiles Mills

I opened the pew Bible and searched for folded pages to smooth, a practice stemming from both my compulsion to line things up in parallel rows and my need to fix things. To make things right.

And things were not right.

The only page that needed smoothing was in the book of Matthew. Even though it felt a little like playing Bible roulette, I read the words that had been hidden under the folded paper:

Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!” Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. “You of little faith,” he said,
“why did you doubt?”

Matthew 14: 29-31

Why do I doubt? Do I not believe God can do anything? I say I believe it. Why the doubt?

I had come to the church campus that Wednesday morning for a Christian yoga class and after yoga, I found myself walking into the empty sanctuary instead of to my van. I picked up a pew Bible and climbed the steps to the stage to sit in the same spot I stand when I sing with the praise team. Then I opened the Bible to the wrinkled page and read about Peter’s doubt.

About his little faith.

I sat there in the quiet, staring out into the empty sanctuary. I had come to pray for revival in my church. For the individual members of the church congregation, for my pastor and for the praise team. But before I could even begin, God pointed out the elephant in the room. Or should I say the elephant in the sanctuary?

I intended to pray for revival while saturated in doubt.

I believe God can do anything.

But I doubted He would do this.

I turned the wrinkled page and looked at the back side. Like an arrow, the beginning of the wrinkle pointed to the first line of Matthew 15:8. Words spoken by Christ, printed in red. I read, continuing to verse 9:

“This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.”

“In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.”

That was harsh.

But I couldn’t discount it.

I couldn’t deny it.

It was the thing that compelled me to slip into the empty sanctuary and pray that morning. This was the thing that was not right. The thing I couldn’t make right.

It was the thing I doubted God would make right.

Not because He couldn’t, but because He wouldn’t. Although it grieved him, the father allowed his prodigal son to leave. The father didn’t go after him and force him to come home against his will. And the son, believing he knew what was best for himself, did not return.

Until he was broken and desperate.

My church is broken, but blind to the brokenness. Desperate for the Father, but unaware of the need.

My church is a victim of the drift.

“Their drift has not been one of overt rebellion but of an inner twisting of the heart, a loss of appreciation for the gospel and all its ramifications.”

from Creature of the Word: The Jesus-Centered Church
by Matt Chandler, Josh Patterson, and Eric Geiger

This post is the first in a mulit-part series, written mostly in late summer/early autumn 2012, published now for the first time.

The second post in the series: “the assumption of Christ“

there’s more to the gospel than evangelism.

Posted on February 3, 2013April 5, 2018 by Julie Stiles Mills

“We must diligently and consistently cast the gospel in larger terms than only evangelism. The gospel consumes the Christian life itself, affecting how our corporate lives play out among the communities where God has placed us, providing us with multiplication potential at every turn…

Whenever people come to a service at your church, they should hear in some way that we are all sinners in need of grace, but that grace has been extended to us in Jesus Christ. His righteousness has been imputed to us, and in His cross God’s wrath toward us has been removed if we will hear, submit, and believe.

Every week someone should proclaim the gospel, no matter what the topic is. If we’re talking about holiness, about manhood, about marriage, parenting, money, or any particular biblical command, we need to teach it and talk about it in view of the gospel, always bringing it back to the epic story of God’s redemption.” (emphasis added)

Creature of the Word: The Jesus-Centered Church
by Matt Chandler, Josh Patterson, and Eric Geiger

conversations with a born-again atheist: gods, God and clarifying the purpose of these talks

Posted on January 15, 2013April 5, 2018 by Julie Stiles Mills

CLICK HERE to read the previous post: “conversations with a born-again atheist: a few definitions“

JSM:It’s good that we’re clarifying some terms, but I think I need to clarify my reasons for wanting to continue our conversation.

As long as we’re going back to the beginning of the conversation, I don’t remember professing belief in God. I didn’t need to. I knew you already knew I was a Christian. I already knew you were an atheist. And I had already figured out that you didn’t look down on me or my family because of our beliefs. Rather, I found you to be gracious and respectful. That’s why I was so comfortable talking to you about Christian music even though I knew you were an atheist. I did not, however, know about your extensive background in Christian music! Could have knocked me over with a feather. Then, when you told me that you had prayed to accept Christ as your Lord and Savior when you were younger? I was hooked. How does a born again Christian become an atheist? Seriously. How does that happen!?

So, to clarify –

I’m not looking to learn about atheism in general. I’m a voracious reader, so I can get generic knowledge about atheism from books. I agree with you that lumping all atheists together is wrong. From what I’ve read and learned in the past, there are many, many reasons for a lack of belief in God. I’m interested in which of those reasons resonated with you and were compelling enough to lead you to reject your faith in Christ.

I’m also not interested in a formal debate. I’m not an expert in Christian theology and, as you said, you’re not an expert in atheism. Besides, given our strong convictions and our individual commitments to holding them, I’m fairly certain a debate would be an exercise in futility.

Your statements in our initial conversation sparked my interest in two ways:

1. How did you – a self-professed born again Christian – become an atheist? You said you made an informed decision, on your own, when you asked Christ to become your Lord and Savior. You even quoted scripture [to support your claim that you understood the decision you were making]. (Not something I expected an atheist to do, by the way.) You said you weren’t coerced or manipulated in any way when you made your decision for Christ. I really, really want to know – how in the world did you come to abandon that faith? I’m interested in reading the book you’ve recommended because you’ve said it helps to explain why you became an atheist. I understand that I’ll be learning more about atheism in the process of learning your story, but it’s your story I’m interested in. There are lots of atheists in the world, it’s your story that is unique.

2. Why do you view faith in God as unreasonable, illogical and irrational? As polite as you are about respecting my right to believe what I want to believe (and I appreciate that), the fact is that you personally don’t respect the belief itself. Logically, here’s how I see it:

1. You’ve stated that you don’t find faith in Christ to be reasonable, logical or rational.
2. My faith in Jesus Christ is at the central core of my life.
3. Therefore, you don’t find my faith to be reasonable, logical or rational.

Logically, there’s no sugar coating that. It is what it is. No need to smooth it over or apologize for it. I promise you, it doesn’t hurt my feelings. But as polite as you are about respecting my right to believe what I want to believe, you are correct when you say people often take these things personally. In our conversation so far, you’ve compared belief in God to belief in UFOs, guardian angels, Santa Claus and most recently, fairies. You do see why some people might be offended, right? (and again, I promise you, I’m not.)

On to your questions…

What is my definition of a god?
I’ll answer, but I’d rather cut to the chase. You don’t believe in any god and I only believe in the Christian God. If it’s okay with you, I’d like to pass on discussion of gods with lower case “g” – unless talking about gods in general will help me understand how you lost/rejected your faith in the Christian God? Besides, you’ve already given me so many reasons and examples of why you don’t find belief in Christ to be (I’ll just pick one) reasonable, we may never get through them all. [in additional emails we haven’t gotten to yet] The last thing I want to do is add more. Especially irrelevant more.

That said….

What is my definition of a god?
Because I’m impatient, I’m going to dumb this one way down: “a transcendent entity.”

transcendent: adjective “Beyond or above the range of normal or merely physical human experience.

entity: noun “A thing with distinct and independent existence.”

What are the attributes of the Christian God?
I’ll start what I’m sure is an incomplete listing of attributes that I reserve the right to add to later:

(in no particular order)
transcendent entity (obviously)
The three O’s:
Omniscient (all knowing – infinite awareness, understanding, and insight)
Omnipotent (all powerful – unlimited authority)
Omnipresent (everywhere, all the time)
Holy (worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness)
Sovereign (supreme authority)
Just (guided by truth, reason and justice)
Compassionate (sympathetic consciousness of others’ distress together with a desire to alleviate it)
Fruits of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control)
and finally,
Inconceivable!

If I’m going to be posting these conversations on my blog, you’re going to need a pseudonym. Everybody on my blog gets one. You want to pick it? (my family members are referred to as FirstHusband (sometimes upgraded to FavoriteHusband), FavoriteSon and PinkGirl. My personal trainer was TinyPowerHouse, daughter’s bully was TheBully and my bully is Narcissa. You get the idea) [note to bloggers: obviously, he picked AtypicalAtheist]

And, while I’ll send you previews of the posts for approval before they go live, I’d prefer to only edit out personal details that might give away your identity. I realize we both run the risk of lookinlikafool every once in a while, but I don’t want to hide behind what could easily morph into an unauthentic script.

If at any time, you become bored with this and want to quit, just say so.

Later,
Julie

conversations with a born-again atheist: a few definitions

Posted on January 14, 2013April 5, 2018 by Julie Stiles Mills

Note: So far, I’ve been including the back and forth of these conversations in one post, but I think I’m going to shift and begin posting most of these emails one at a time. The fact that you don’t see my response to AtypicalAtheist’s email below is ZERO indication that I agree with the statements he’s made. Just means I haven’t responded…YET. Conversely, a post that contains only my statements is ZERO indication that AtypicalAtheist agrees with anything I’ve said.

… snip … (from the “ground rules” email):

JSM: “…your statement “It does not trouble me for people believe in god any more than it troubles me for people to believe in UFO visits, guardian angels, or Santa Clause.” leads me to conclude you don’t view faith as reasonable, logical or rational. Actually, I think you’ve used all three of those words. I’m curious as to why you believe faith in Christ is incompatible with reason and logic. And I don’t take it at all personally, that holding such a belief, you might view me as lacking in reason and logic because I myself have faith in Christ.”

AtypicalAtheist: Hey Julie,

I’m glad for your qualifier – people often take these things personally. Suffice it to say I don’t find it a reasonable belief, but I support your right to believe as you wish. As to why I don’t find it reasonable, I think we’d have to back up in the conversation to the beginning. You profess belief in a god (the Christian God). Before we begin a discussion, we need to agree on some definitions I think. First, let me start with defining atheism and agnosticism – I touched on this early in our conversation, but it’s important to me not to gloss over it. Then, I’ll ask you for a definition or two so we’re on the same page…

1- Theism comes from the Greek root ‘theos’ meaning ‘god’, and is the belief in the existence of a god or gods. Atheism literally translates into ‘without’ + ‘belief in the existence of a god or gods’ because in Latin, the ‘a’ prefix means without (other examples include asexual, amoral, anarchy, anhydrous, etc). So – atheism is simply being “without the belief in a god or gods” and nothing more. It doesn’t say why there is a lack of belief, it simply is the lack of belief. According to my readings, the lack of belief could be implicit (for example, a tribe of Amazonians that don’t happen to believe in a god or gods), or could be explicit (someone that is familiar with the concept of a god or gods, and rejects the concept).

2- Gnosticism comes from the Latin word ‘gnostos’ meaning ‘known’, or ‘posessing knowledge’. Agnosticism is then literally ‘without knowledge’ or ‘without ultimate knowledge’. As a general term, agnosticism now signifies the impossibility of knowledge in some area – commonly, a person who believes that something is inherently unknowable. Coined by Thomas Huxley some time in the 1860’s, it was his assertion that “anything beyond the material world, including the existence and nature of God, was unknowable”. Contrary to popular belief, an agnostic isn’t some kind of middle-ground between belief in theism and atheism.

3- Atheism does not imply any type of moral code or world view. In fact, it’s merely the absense of a belief. There is no positive assertion or statements in atheism, just a negative one (without belief in a god or gods). So, lumping all atheists together in one bundle is as wrong as lumping all theists together under a common label. There are plenty of theists that don’t believe in the death penalty, do believe in a womans right to choose, and even don’t believe in Jesus. There are as many varied and principled and unprincipled atheists as there are principled and unprincipled theists (think Jim and Tammy Faye). Bottom line here is that one cannot infer that an atheist subscribes to any particular positive beliefs. The failure to believe in fairies does not entail a set of principles or a code of ethics – merely that one is an afairiest. 😀

So let me get a couple of definitions from you…

* What is your definition of a god?

* What are the attributes of the Christian God?

Thoughtfully,
AtypicalAtheist

conversations with a born-again atheist: the ground rules

Posted on January 10, 2013April 5, 2018 by Julie Stiles Mills

Below is the email exchange in which we set the ground rules for blog posting. One thing I want to emphasize is the pseudonym. I’m going to respect the pseudonym. Don’t ask me about the identity of AtypicalAtheist, because if you do, I’m going to give you the look that says “seriously? You did NOT just ask me that.

AtypicalAtheist: Well – I’m not an expert with respect to atheism or philosophy, and I’m not sure I’m the guy to fully represent rational thought on religion. Ultimately, I’ve read the opinions of many philosophers on the topic as well as the bible at least six times and I’ve come to the conclusion that atheism makes sense to me.

JSM: I’m definitely not an expert either. My formal education is in communication and business, not theology. I’m just finding this conversation a tremendous impetus for learning and as a teacher/trainer, I always want to share learning experiences and what they teach me. I’ve never discussed theology with an atheist before and I can already say – It’s definitely not boring.

I suppose you can post stuff about this on your blog as long as:

AtypicalAtheist: “I’m not named – I would hate for my beliefs to negatively affect any person or organization I’m associated with. There are many Christians that believe that atheists are somehow inherently amoral and not to be trusted. I have a strong sense of right and wrong, and have imbued that within my kids. I just don’t happen to require the promise of paradise or the threat of hell to do what’s right.”

JSM: Anonymity is definitely what I had in mind. There’s absolutely no reason to and nothing to be gained from identifying you. Although I personally don’t know any Christians who view atheists as inherently amoral or untrustworthy, I understand your concern. I would never put you, your family or any organization you are associated with at risk. I realize I will run the risk of nasty comments/emails, but it’s my blog and I can filter or block comments. And I know how to delete emails.

AtypicalAtheist: “That none of my beliefs are associated in any way with what my wife believes. She was brought up Catholic as a child, and now more closely aligns with protestants. Yeah – a protestant and an atheist have been married for over 25 years – who’d have thunk it?”

JSM: Understood. AtypicalWife and I have our own discussions about faith. (obviously, very different from the one you and find ourselves engaged it)

AtypicalAtheist: “That none of my beliefs affect the relationship between our families. I shared something with you that I don’t normally share with other people because I believe that religion (or lack thereof) is a personal choice. I don’t want this to somehow taint your view any of my kids. They are their own beings, and I don’t force my views onto them. I encouraged my children to study and compare religions and to not just choose Christianity or atheism because their parents are one or another.

JSM: I would never let that happen. My family has known for months that you are an atheist and I don’t see that it has strained our relationship at all. I see this dialog as an exploration. Your explanation of why you don’t believe there is a God, as well as your statement “It does not trouble me for people believe in god any more than it troubles me for people to believe in UFO visits, guardian angels, or Santa Clause.” leads me to conclude you don’t view faith as reasonable, logical or rational. Actually, I think you’ve used all three of those words. I’m curious as to why you believe faith in Christ is incompatible with reason and logic. And I don’t take it at all personally, that holding such a belief, you might view me as lacking in reason and logic because I myself have faith in Christ.

AtypicalAtheist: * Your OK that since I’m not an expert, that I won’t have all the answers – I will likely have to research things and evaluate different opinions. No matter what, I’m constantly in a state of learning.

JSM: me. too.

conversations with a born-again atheist: the first emails

Posted on January 9, 2013April 5, 2018 by Julie Stiles Mills

A few days back I posted that I had an opportunity to have a conversation with a born-again atheist. When I say “born-again atheist” I mean he was a born again Christian, but is now an atheist. (If you missed it, check it out here: conversations with a born-again atheist: the beginning)

Below is the first email exchange to follow that verbal conversation. I realize no one reading these blog posts was privy to the initial in-person conversation, but keep reading. You’ll catch up.

AtypicalAtheist: I just wanted to follow up on our conversation. If you’d like, I can forward information on some of my claims this earlier morning, as well as my sources and the biblical references I referred to. Just drop me an e-mail and I’ll follow up.

Thanks again for being such good company whilst our kids froliced.

JSM: I would love that! Thanks! And I do actually have an extra copy of Evidence That Demands A Verdict if you would like to have it. (that’s the one written by Josh McDowell – the atheist who set out to scientifically disprove God and ended up a Christian) I pick them up at garage sales and thrift stores whenever I find a copy.

Something did occur to me. You said the burden of proof for the possibility of the supernatural was on the person who claimed it is possible? But wouldn’t that require me to use science, which is the observation of the natural, to prove the supernatural, which by definition is something that cannot be proven by the natural? A bit of circular reasoning? (and I had to read that twice.)

Thanks again to you and your family for a wonderful evening and one of the strangest theological discussions I’ve ever found myself engaged in.

AtypicalAtheist: Not a problem – it was most engaging.

Regarding proof for the supernatural, someone making a claim is required to back up the claim. If someone claims that god told them to kill their first born son, the burden of proof would be on them. You would not be compelled to somehow prove that they did not have a miraculous conversation with god, even if there’s precedence for such a conversation in the bible. And we both know, it’s more likely that the person making such a claim is either delusional, or simply lying.

We have regularity in nature, and we know that an entity won’t simply disappear or act in a manner inconsistent to it’s nature. We know that a cat will not begin quoting scripture, and we know that a flock of seagulls will not suddenly walk into a karaoke bar singing “Bend and Snap”.

And how about this – I have a copy of “Atheism: The Case Against God” by George H. Smith. Let’s trade. I’ll read yours cover to cover if you’ll read mine cover to cover. Heck, we can even trade book reports!

By the way – just to be clear – I’m not any kind of activist atheist. It does not trouble me for people to believe in god any more than it troubles me for people to believe in UFO visits, guardian angels, or Santa Clause.

Thanks again for wonderful conversation.

Take care